How to Find, Know and Live on Purpose?

[00:00:00] Surbhi Dedhia: hey Vibhuti. Welcome to The Making of a Thought Leader podcast. It is absolutely my pleasure to have you on board today. 

[00:00:06] Vibhuti Duggar: Hi, Surbhi. I'm super excited and it's a pleasure is all mine to be here and talk about my favorite topics that we want to discuss today, really happy to be here. 

[00:00:17] Surbhi Dedhia: Absolutely. So let's start from your backstory. Why don't you introduce yourself to the audience today and share all about what you're doing, what you've been doing so far, and then let’s take it on from there. 

[00:00:30] Vibhuti Duggar: Sure. My name is Vibhuti Duggar. I've been born and brought up, in central part of India. Uh, then it was a small city called Raipur. I've been working as a corporate trainer and a public speaker and a coach for over 13 years now. Out of 13 years, 10 years of my work was in UAE, in subjects, like neuro-linguistic programming, NLP, mind-mapping, and those added to my, journey, upgraded myself and, yeah, this is the field I've been passionate about. I also do poetry and I do wall paintings. So those are my two different set of passions that I follow. I have two beautiful children. That's about it. .

[00:01:09] Surbhi Dedhia: Wonderful. And in fact, when you were saying that you were 10 years of your career, or a decade of your career has been in Dubai, my mind went into the point of we meeting in Dubai. Like we've always been connected when I was in Singapore. And then when I moved to Dubai, you were my first port of call to say, hi, I'm here. So, it really went to those good days of us connecting and chatting up. Talking about the connection. The person that I know you and the area that you've always focused on is purpose. The starting point of building a thought leader or making of a thought leader is starting with the purpose.

[00:01:50] Surbhi Dedhia: I have this eight P framework of building Thought leadership, and that itself also starts with purpose. Why don't you talk about that first? What is project purpose all about?

[00:02:02] Vibhuti Duggar: The word purpose, everything I do is around the word purpose. My company name is project purpose, which I started in 2015 in Dubai. And then I moved to India in 2018, registered it here now. My poetry page, is called poetry with purpose by Vibhuti.

[00:02:18] Vibhuti Duggar: So for me, everything is around Purpose. And, the signature program I do is find your purpose in life. The retreats that I organize is about finding a purpose. So, purpose is something that cannot go away from my life. And it all started, I would say in 2000 in between 2005 and 2006.

[00:02:38] Vibhuti Duggar: The whole idea of, researching around purpose, what is purpose of life? So it all started around 2005 and 2006 when I was doing my post-graduation. And since then, when I came across the subject of what is the purpose of life, what do you actually need to find your purpose, from there everything changed for me. 

[00:02:59] Surbhi Dedhia: Yeah. Nice. Project purpose, is what you do and everything around the word purpose is something that you are connected with. As I was mentioning thought leadership, the 8P model that I've designed for building one's Thought Leadership, the first P is the purpose.

[00:03:17] Surbhi Dedhia: Why somebody should lead with purpose or build their thought leadership with purpose. May I have your thoughts on why you think purpose is so important while building thought leadership and here we are really talking about business owners, entrepreneurs who are moving into the digital landscape post COVID and improving the digital footprint, building, their thought leadership, why they should look at purpose?

[00:03:45] Vibhuti Duggar: Think about it all the top gurus speakers, leaders, talk about finding your, why. The biggest brands in the world, are talking about why having clarity of why. Now why and purpose are obviously kind of synonymous. Now, if you can see. Victor Franklin who wrote, the book of man in search of meaning, he says that when your, why is clear, how and what will follow.

[00:04:11] Vibhuti Duggar: The book start with why Simon Sinek, talks about why talks about gives the example of one of the biggest brands in the world, apple and how Steve jobs was very clear and focused. His whole branding marketing of apple is around why. So as far as business angle is concerned or individual personal angle is concerned. Even if we step a little bit back from the business angle of finding the purpose and the why, and if an individual, if an individual is clear about why I'm in this world, what for want to live every day, that energy will reflect in business, in relationships everywhere. Because a purpose is never attached to a person. A purpose is attached to an idea of concept. And when that is clear and when it that's your top priority in life, no matter what happens in your life, you'll be on track. That's what I found, when I was researching and, digging into this topic of purpose of life, why is it important?

[00:05:18] Surbhi Dedhia: So how can leaders apply for purpose alongside with their goals??

[00:05:22] Vibhuti Duggar: We all have heard about, begin with the end in the mind. Like Napoleon Hill said in think and grow rich. So if today's my last day, what is one thing that I want to live for, I've lived for and known for when I pass on from this world, you start from the last day of your life. That's where leaders start thinking. And that becomes a very larger perspective because, I think, a lot of times it happens that leaders, business owners are thinking from business perspective. How about thinking as life as a whole first, what does that business is part of your life?

[00:06:04] Vibhuti Duggar: Business is not your life. And then from a bird's eye view perspective, when you see a life, and this is the purpose of your life, then business ups and downs, , the course of business, the environmental changes, the economic changes does not bother you because purpose and goals are two things which go parallel with each other.

[00:06:30] Vibhuti Duggar: You will never achieve purpose. You live on purpose. There's not going to be a day where you say, okay, I've achieved my purpose of life. No, you live on purpose. Yes, you might have a five-year goal plan for your business and for your life. You might have 10 years, 15 years, 20 years vision. And after that what? There is a new vision or a new goal.

[00:06:54] Vibhuti Duggar: Yeah but it's different with purpose , it just goes on parallely with your life. And over the years, I've got so many examples of how either it can be merged with your business and profession, or it can be run parallely. You can live on your purpose parallely and it will reflect in every part of your life.

[00:07:16] Vibhuti Duggar: For example, when you drop a stone in the river, there are ripples around. That's the best analogy for purpose, it is the outside effect of your purpose outside of you. It will create positive ripples outside of the stone body. Purpose is creating positive ripples outside of you.

[00:07:36] Vibhuti Duggar: It is not for you. Now. You can have a small stone or a gigantic stone, which will create bigger, ripples. It's up to you. Doesn't matter. I want to touch five lives or 5 million lives. It's up to you. It's about me making that difference, leaving this world a better place than before. And in that process, it becomes so beautiful. In that process, you are growing personally knowledge wise in every way. It makes it all beautiful. 

[00:08:10] Surbhi Dedhia: That is very interesting way of defining purpose and, imagining that what you do impacts others. And how can you decide the range of that impact? Is it just as you said, five people or is it 5 million people?

[00:08:29] Surbhi Dedhia: What are some of the frameworks that can help with that? Right? Like how, as a thought leader, how do I decide? Or examples that you can give of what purpose is for some individuals, and that could be an inspiration for others to begin. 

[00:08:43] Vibhuti Duggar: What happened in 2004 to 2006, I was doing my post-graduation. I was forced into doing MBA and, it was an incident that put me in that space. Otherwise I was supposed to, after graduation, get married, have kids that was the life I was supposed to have, but it took a different turn then. And interestingly, the first exercise or activity we got in MBA, one professor walked in and said that here are some books on the table and the whole bunch of students were divided in pairs and each pair had to read a book for a week and present the review of the book. .

[00:09:23] Vibhuti Duggar: I had never read a book, apart from my syllabus till then. And I said, what am I going to do? And when the first day I started reading a book, I took the thinnest possible book from the table. I slept off after one page. Second day, I said, let me give, give a try again. Again, I slept. Then I said, it's not my cup of tea.

[00:09:45] Vibhuti Duggar: And thankfully that time we had computer labs in our college. And I went and I said, let me find out the summary of the book somewhere. I found a few lines wrote in a piece of paper, five, six lines. So when my turn came to speak and present the review, I had written five, six sentences on this piece of paper. My hand started shivering with a piece of paper. My legs were shivering. I could not speak more than two sentences. And I, froze. And I sat back in the bench and, you know, the recess time people were coming and consoling the more the console, the more bad I felt.

[00:10:18] Vibhuti Duggar: That day when I went home, I locked myself. I cried for hours. And, I think that's the day I can pinpoint where I started asking the right questions to myself. What am I, what am I doing in this world? Who am I, am I just this timid, weak, shy? Or am I something else?

[00:10:39] Vibhuti Duggar: Is there something else , in me and with that question, , after a lot of tears have a lot of anger in me in, in that rage and anger in my journal, I wrote that last day of this college, I will be the best speaker of the class. And it kind of flung that diary in anger. And from that day I said, no, I have to, at least this I have to do no matter what. That opened the whole world of reading books for me, because I had nowhere to go to be a better speaker than to have content from these well-known books.

[00:11:12] Vibhuti Duggar: And I got into reading awaken the giant within from Tony Robbins, think and grow rich from Napoleon hill. The secret. These were my, starting reads, which just blown me away. I said, wow, these people are talking about, have a vision of life of 20 years, 30 years, Here I have tiny goals and I'm getting happier.

[00:11:33] Vibhuti Duggar: Now when I started deciding, okay, what would be my life? Where will I be 20 years from now, 30 years from now? How big can you think, because these books, we're talking about thinking big, stretching your comfort zone, whether it's possible or not, you have to have big goals in life. And the examples, the real life, examples in these books, created the whole bubble of belief system around me.

[00:11:56] Vibhuti Duggar: There are so many people who are actually doing it, and that's the point because it got into a lot of reading and researching. I bumped into an article, some guy I still don't know who wrote this article because I just downloaded it from internet. So this guy wrote an article on the life of Bunkminster Fuller, uh, an American scientist. He has 400 patents in his name and understanding where he started, you know, his journey. He kind of decoded the whole concept of purpose of life. And that I said, wow, I never knew that, people can have a purpose of life. That's where I, saw the analogy of the drop off the stone and the ripples. In that article, it was very clearly explained that how you have to have a purpose of life. And, you know, it's not just goals. So because all of the books we're talking about having a 20 year old, 20 yearlong vision, or a bold and big goals in life, but they were not talking about purpose. Now when this opened up my thinking that, oh, so how about if my purpose is clear and my goal is clear, that will be the richest life I can think of based on the article, what I'm reading, but the problem then was it did not had anything in that article that how can you find the purpose of your life?. So I was in a fix now, where do I find the purpose of the, how do I find my purpose of life right now? By then finished awaken the giant within from Tony Robbins. And, one concept was very clear in my head that human beings are driven by pain or pleasure.

[00:13:35] Vibhuti Duggar: So I, it got me thinking that, then it has to come from either pain or pleasure, because we are driven to purpose will also come with pain and pleasure. Um, I clearly remember I had a plain sheet of paper. I made a line divided the page into two halves on the top one side, I wrote pain, other side, I wrote pleasure.

[00:13:56] Vibhuti Duggar: And I said, okay, let me think what gives me immense pain when I see it on the world, you know, is it poverty? Is it people deprived of medical aid? So I started writing. And what gives me immense pleasure when I see it around, in the world. Now, while I was making these, points, both columns. There was a point, where it had an intersection. There was one point which is same here and same there. And it got me goosebumps. Because I said, whoa, here it is. 

[00:14:29] Vibhuti Duggar: Till graduation, the life I was living, I felt I was living like a vegetable or fruit. No meaning, no goals, just living by getting up, eating food, going to tuition, not growing, stagnant, right from where I was no growth as a person.

[00:14:49] Vibhuti Duggar: And that was my pain point. When I see somebody doing nothing productive, meaningful, it gives me an immense pain because it came from my person. I was that person. And, uh, the other side, which was the intersection point was seeing that when I see somebody who's living a meaningful life was adding value was growing. If you look at that person five years before, and now there's an immense growth and shift in that person. Positive aura where people are totally attracted to meet that person all the time.

[00:15:23] Vibhuti Duggar: I said, yeah, this is what it is. So my purpose has to come in a way that, either instigate people to find their purpose or live a life where it is just meaningful. The more I looked at, I was getting emotionally charged. So I said, okay, let me write the statement. That one line that I can call that's my purpose of life. Right? And then I wrote, I wrote actually two statements, one that from now I want to live every single day of my life in a way that anybody looks at me at that day should have a feeling, oh my God, what am I doing?

[00:16:03] Vibhuti Duggar: I need to do something about my life. You know, if somebody is sitting in the car, they have to have the spring, I need to get up and do something. And no matter what I'm doing every single day has to be like that. And second was an, it should instigate people to start finding their purpose of life. 

[00:16:21] Vibhuti Duggar: Now, once the statement was clear in my head, I said, when, you know what's your purpose there are multiple mediums of living that book. So then I said, okay, I'm going to live this. How, how am I going to pass this message? How will my life look and sound and feel like I'm living on purpose.

[00:16:41] Vibhuti Duggar: So then I made another list and it sounds really simple. It has to emotionally charge you. It is not a rocket science. When I started writing what to, what can be my medium. So I said, okay, my interest in hobbies, let me write them. At that moment being a public speaker was the most exciting thing. So I wrote public speaking. Then I wrote poetry. I used write poems. Um, I write dancing because I used to love dancing. Then I had wrote sketch sketching, because by then I was only sketching, not painting, know, um, reading.

[00:17:16] Vibhuti Duggar: So all of these five, six things I wrote and I said, I'm going to give myself three month time. And every time I perform any of these activities on a scale of zero to 10, I will write what is my satisfaction level, emotionally, how charged I was while doing this, and I just did it for a month and I, I thought I don't even have to think or look for three months.

[00:17:42] Vibhuti Duggar: I already know, because every time I was in front of an audience speaking my satisfaction, emotional intensity, everything was at another level. So I said, that's it? That is my top medium of living on my purpose. So I said, okay, now what's the biggest that I can think of in public speaking by now, I knew that it has to be big goals and if it's linked to your purpose, then it can go crazy. And I said, okay, I was sitting in a small town in a college, among 60 students and thinking about what is the biggest I can think, never gone out of the city to study or never explore the world outside.

[00:18:24] Vibhuti Duggar: So I wrote one day, I'm going to speak in front of 10,000 people in a stadium on the topic purpose of life. And this is my biggest dream or biggest goal in life. I wrote, maybe 25 to 30 years from now. And I wrote that and I said, um, whether I achieved this goal or not one thing is for sure, every single day I have to live in a way that anybody sees me has to get out of that space, comfort zone, let me do something in life and that's it.

[00:18:54] Vibhuti Duggar: And then I said, okay, poetry, if I do will also, go slowly in that. Right. Sketching will go on the, I'm not going to leave all of these because then my options are open. Yes. It's not that only through this I have to live my purpose. I can live my purpose to any of these, correct? 

[00:19:11] Surbhi Dedhia: I am going to, talk about it in summary, because I think there's a lot of meaning and value that people can drive from here. I think the framework is sort of like this, which is you come up with a column, which is talks about pain on one side and the pleasure on other side, because all human beings are driven by either pain or pleasure.

[00:19:32] Surbhi Dedhia: As you said, once you write down those areas, which give you the maximum amount of pain, or you get feel sad from all these areas and you get the biggest amount of pleasure from these areas, you write them down. Then there will be a point where on both the column, there is an intersection, whether there is something which is common and they match meaning the same activity gives you a pain, but the same activity also gives you the maximum pleasure.

[00:19:59] Surbhi Dedhia: And that's where, people can build their purpose statement. Once they have written this purpose statement. And there is no particular magic formula. It's in your own words, in your own style of saying that this is the purpose of my life, then avenues open up and by avenues, what people can look at is then go into their hobbies, their routine things that they do, the things that , charges them emotionally. So you go to those areas in your case, it was your hobbies, like painting your hobbies, like writing poetry, and that's where you are able to express yourself in the best format. And then once. You have that list of five, six hobbies, and the avenues that we spoke about you go to the one avenue and then extrapolate it to say how big I want to go from here? Hobbies is a general way of saying, but I would say that activities that energize you. For some people writing content in their field, maybe something that comes very naturally to them, for some people talking may come naturally. Some for some people presenting on a video format would be a more natural.

[00:21:11] Surbhi Dedhia: So depending on what energizes you, the most, you take a small step in that direction. But always remember to put the next big goal, the next big goal, or in your case, what you said, you gave yourself a time of two decades. And then you said in two decades, this is what I want to achieve.

[00:21:28] Surbhi Dedhia: So everything from then on what you do using these avenues is towards that a goal. It gives you the purpose. It gives you a meaning to achieve your goals from there.

[00:21:41] Vibhuti Duggar: Absolutely. 

[00:21:42] Surbhi Dedhia: All right, this is so good. So there is no technical framework. There is no, complexity. It is because it is so simple. And this is something that, I like to talk to my audience is that human beings unnecessarily complex things. It can be very simple, only it needs to be consistent, and you've got to be true to yourself.

[00:22:03] Surbhi Dedhia: That means to bring authenticity in whatever you do, this is brilliant Vibhuti. Thank you so much. . How can it, expand itself the whole concept of purpose at an organization level?

[00:22:16] Surbhi Dedhia: Can you talk a little bit about that? 

[00:22:18] Vibhuti Duggar: So any business, if you think about it is about solving a problem of the world, right? Uh, you create a business when you are providing a product or service, or you're making other people life a better place, better life. And you're actually solving a problem, the base of any businesses that. So now, if it is coming from a purpose, if it’s was clear that why am I doing this business from the pain and pleasure and that bit linked with the activity with that energizes me, that's where the starting point of the business.

[00:22:55] Vibhuti Duggar: A business purpose should come along now. That has to be communicated at every level of the organization so that we all are on-board on the same journey heading towards the same destination, having the same depth of meaning and purpose attached to the business. Those are the best organizations which have, and for that the management team or the person who initiated the business that person has to have the clarity, absolute clarity on the why or the purpose, why you're running the business.

[00:23:31] Vibhuti Duggar: Because at the end of the day, every business, one of the objectives is to make profits. Yes. But when the purpose is clear, profits can go up and down, but then that line never changes and that keeps you going. You find different ways because, fine the economic is not working, but what are we here for? Let's stick to that. And let's find different ways, creative ways to sustain, because we don't want to lose the purpose we are here for. And those are the companies in tough times they still do not devalue or degrade the quality of their product or service because they are very clear that, you know, we have to live, the purpose of the business, not just make money, here.

[00:24:18] Surbhi Dedhia: So earlier you talked about apple being, one such organization that there was so clear on the purpose. 

[00:24:25] Vibhuti Duggar: I can give you an example where we, we conducted a retreat recently, in a resort and the resort owners, their whole inclination is forest reservation, save trees and forests, right? So they've created a jungle restaurant and, because the resort is around the jungle. So how it can be connected to the village people and make sure the forest around is not disturbed. They have a vision that once they retire they are going to donate everything for forest conservation right. Now it's not that they're not earning money, but there is a meaning behind it, why they are running the resort in this jungle. And it's just beautiful.

[00:25:06] Vibhuti Duggar: So it's not just about those big giants that are so many other people, so many other examples out there, people who are living on purpose the business is absolute clarity on why they're running the business, right? 

[00:25:20] Surbhi Dedhia: What you're saying is that when big or small organization they're very clear on the purpose, it helps them to onboard other people. Be it, their partners, be it, the employees, the vendors, or even be the communities for a long-term sustainable and a meaningful relationship. Books have been an integral part of you or your journey. How can books be a source of inspiration for other people's purpose? Like what should they be looking at in books to bring out their purpose. 

[00:25:55] Vibhuti Duggar: I can go on and on about this particular topic because I give credit to my life changing for better in every aspect, whether it's a relationship, whether it's work, whether it's personally growth, to books, it has a 360 degree change and all credit to books.

[00:26:14] Vibhuti Duggar: When I got handed these books, my mind started opening up completely. I started looking like from a broader perspective, because these are books where people are giving you examples from across the world. You start developing a wider perspective also because these concepts, are tried and tested.

[00:26:35] Vibhuti Duggar: It's been proven, people have used them and succeeded in every aspect. The more you apply these concepts in life, the more confidence you'll get that while it actually works, that's what happened.

[00:26:46] Vibhuti Duggar: That I read a book and I started applying it in my life. There's certain concepts using them and I said, wow, it definitely works. And then I said that I need to, get more tools. I need to read more concepts. That's why it just got deeper and deeper into books. Now I cannot live without books. I am surrounded by my books and office in my bedside, everywhere in my bag always there is a book. 

[00:27:09] Surbhi Dedhia: On that note, I have this other question, it's, everybody's busy, you know, business owners are busy, how can they absorb the content of the book faster so that they get the meaning and they can apply it faster. Do you have any tips or tricks to share? 

[00:27:28] Vibhuti Duggar: I would say only one thing, if you really want to do something, you'll find time. Everybody has 24 hours. In interviews, bill gates has said that I read 50 books a year minimum. Where does that guy find time to read books? I mean, it's different now, isn't it. We have audio books, right? So you can put on the audio book and you can listen to the books while you're doing your mundane jobs. 

[00:27:49] Surbhi Dedhia: I know, you do something very unique when it comes to books. I'm blown away by that concept. And I want you to share with the audience about the books and what do you do with it? 

[00:28:01] Vibhuti Duggar: So, when the pandemic started, 20 20, everything was going online and there was a lot of time in hand and I said, what is something new that I can just do a workshop on? And I thought, you know, a lot of people, have been sharing this issue about, I'm not able to ever finish a book when I start, or I'm not able to read the book. It's not just the time constraint, it's the consistency to stick with that book. And I thought that, developing a habit of reading a book is also, it takes time. And how do you read a book because, These books, which I'm talking about, Awaken the Giant Within these are not the books that you'll just read like a night read.

[00:28:37] Vibhuti Duggar: These are books, you'd stick with a notebook where you may write those concepts. Underline, it's like an exercise, And I said, I run the book workshop as I have read the book.

[00:28:48] Vibhuti Duggar: So, it was a very organic process, which became a series now book workshops. So it's called decoding a famous book and learning. Because it's all about decoding the book, it's not just about reading the book. What I do is it's like, based on the length of the book, we have either 12 or 15 days of book workshop. Every day, the group meets for two hours. I come prepared with one or two chapters based on length of the number of pages of the chapters. And then I discuss it. I share the concept and with every concept, we have a discussion round with the group. By the end of two hours, they get a task to come back to the next day. We start the next day with their sharing the tasks that you have done. So it's extremely interactive. 

[00:29:33] Vibhuti Duggar: I seldomly go and actually read like a page, maybe a very important paragraph I have to read, then I'll read. And then they get a hand written summary. By the end of the workshop, they have the recorded session, which the sessions, which are accessible to them for at least three to four weeks. That's how it started. People started asking me, when are you going to announce the next workshop next book? I said, I'm going to announce soon. So now I've done it on the seven books in a year. And I think it's become like one of my signature workshops now I'm going to continue doing it. 

[00:30:04] Surbhi Dedhia: It's brilliant that you have 10 books, as a goal already for that, this is really nice. Vibhuti, I think talking to you once again, after so long has refreshed all the concepts again to me, and thank you so much for sharing so generously, but before I let you go, Please share with the audience where they can find you and anything else that they can do or should do about building their purpose on living on purpose.

[00:30:29] Vibhuti Duggar: It was absolutely fun, interacting with you and, if people want to find more about purpose of life, I think the one thing I would like to reaffirm and say is the deepest things in life, the deepest concepts in life are the most simplest ones. We, human beings complicate it. . Just read about it, research, do your own research. Now there are so many people who talk about purpose of life. There's so much content.

[00:31:00] Vibhuti Duggar: There's so many books around purpose of life. Simon Sinek's start with why itself has, has given so much content that on purpose, that's what I want to leave everybody with go find out that journey, give yourself some time to find your purpose now, start with the end in mind last day of your life.

[00:31:18] Vibhuti Duggar: Not five-year 10-year goal plan last day of your life, that can give you a larger perspective about life some people say, what about if I want to have a life with a very simple living and I want to focus on my family. I want to live a positive, happy, simple life. I don't want to think about pupose of life and goals. And I say, absolutely fine.

[00:31:39] Vibhuti Duggar: You know, if that's, what is the small stone is because if you live positive, happy life, people around, you will get rubbed off that positivity. You will touch lives around with that positivity. And that's it, you know, it's, you're still living on purpose and it's yours. Whether you want to drop that small stone, big stone, or just, sit by the Riverside with other people's ripples and you know, maybe here and there help them.

[00:32:08] Vibhuti Duggar: There's no right and wrong. This is not the only way to live life that you have to find purpose. If it calls you, go for it. If not time will come and you'll be pulled towards it because it does come in everybody's life at point where they, oh, what am I doing? The existential question will touch you at some point in life.

[00:32:29] Vibhuti Duggar: That's about it to find me. If you just write Vibhuti Duggar do good in Instagram, LinkedIn, Facebook, I am there with that name everywhere. The website name is projectpurpose.in. That's it. 

[00:32:40] Surbhi Dedhia: Thank you Vibhuti . This has been so meaningful and the topics so close to us, both because we have had hours chatting and talking about this. Thank you for sharing all that you know about the concept of purpose with the audience today.

[00:32:57] Surbhi Dedhia: Thank you Surbhi , it's been the most amazing, time with you. And I absolutely loved talking around this topic with you. Thank you.