Dec. 13, 2021

TMTL Author Interview: The Thought Leader Way

TMTL Author Interview: The Thought Leader Way

Thought leadership building for an organisation gets difficult if it is not backed by the senior leaders. Marketers often find themselves in the dilema of chasing leads and showing ROI instead of owning the thought leadership agenda. How then can organisation in the long run differentiate itself from the competition?

On this value packed episode of The Making of a Thought Leader podcast, I am joined by Dr. Karthik Nagendra who is a marketer and also an author of book The Thought Leader way. Dr. Karthik explains how a a systematic approach can help organisations sustain thought leadership agenda in the long run.

Being a fellow marketer, I and Dr. Karthik talk all about the funnel chase and how thought leadership can help at each stage.

This is one episode you do not want to miss as it has elements for senior business leaders, actionable ideas for marketers and also insights for individuals to work upon.

Dr. Karthik is reachable on Linkedin -

and his book is available on Kindle and Amazon -

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[00:00:00] Surbhi Dedhia: Hello doctor Karthik, welcome to the Making of a Thought Leader podcast. It is absolutely my pleasure to have you today with us, and I'm sure the audiences are going to really enjoy our conversation. 

[00:00:12] Dr. Karthik: Thank you, Surbhi. Thank you for having me here. Sure, really excited to share some of the learnings which I have in this space of thought leadership Marketing.

[00:00:21] Surbhi Dedhia: Awesome. Dr. Karthik, let's start with, sharing about yourself to the audience. You've written a book you do so many things, so share all about what you. 

[00:00:33] Dr. Karthik: Yeah. So I'm basically a marketing guy, so close to two decades of experience in core marketing right now. So earlier worked in senior positions in, Wipro and Accenture and a couple of startups do marketing for them.

[00:00:48] Dr. Karthik: My core focus has been around helping brands build thought leadership, that was the origin for the book, which I hope that The Thought Leader way because I realized that, especially from, an emerging [00:01:00] market standpoint, thought leadership is something which is very nascent in this market.

[00:01:04] Dr. Karthik: And I felt, you know, with my experience, having worked with all these brands, that I could probably share a blueprint or a framework which could help the consultants, small and medium enterprises and even larger organizations where they're trying to begin this entire journey. So, so that's a nutshell what I do. I am also a certified life coach.

[00:01:25] Dr. Karthik: So that's, that's but yeah, marketing has always been passionate and that's something which I continue to do.

[00:01:31] Surbhi Dedhia: So amazing. And from what you're saying, in terms of the outlook be it at an individual like at an entrepreneurial level or at, at like a large organization level in different countries, this outlook is very different.

[00:01:45] Surbhi Dedhia: And also I understand how things are so different in India, because as a geography it is very dynamic, it's very diverse. So it is interesting that you've written this book. Share something more [00:02:00] about the book, what are the, the essence, the main essence of the book.

[00:02:03] Dr. Karthik: So interestingly, if you search the term thought leader there are a million profiles, which have the word thought leader mentioned. Unfortunately that is one word, which is abused so much that, that sometimes people don't even give the respect. So, so that was a starting point. And I said, you know what?

[00:02:22] Dr. Karthik: I need to purely create something which can establish people and brands . So in the thought leader way, you know, we what I've done is I've basically given more clarity on what thought leadership is all about how should brands go about doing it, we get sometimes there's confusion that you're gonna just content marketing is equal to the thought leadership. So I focused a bit on saying how it's a subset of leadership and not thought leadership itself.

[00:02:46] Dr. Karthik: There are a lot of examples which I share, from across industries and sizes of organization, where it clearly shows that thought leadership can be applied to different aspects. And there are some frameworks also [00:03:00] which I share people who are you know, like I said, starting off on this journey of building a thought leadership ecosystem or thought leadership marketing program within their organisation. So, it has interviews from CMOs from, from leading organizations as well. 

[00:03:14] Surbhi Dedhia: Very nice. Very interesting. And you know I couldn't resist the copy of the book. I was just sharing with you earlier that, the, since the book is coming later, the physical copy I've downloaded Kindle.

[00:03:24] Surbhi Dedhia: And I think one thing that really stuck with me is the five F approach. Could you share with the audience, what is the five Fapproach? 

[00:03:34] Dr. Karthik: So you know, basically a lot of people who are starting off on this thought leadership marketing journey, and I talk about it, it could be a personal brand, or it could be a corporate brand that we are looking at the fundamental issue which comes in is there is no structured approach to building.

[00:03:49] Dr. Karthik: So you need a very systematic approach and that also needs to be sustainable. So I've created this framework of 5F, if which can, can [00:04:00] help organizations and individuals, on their journey. So what are these 5Fs, which I talk about in the book? Right? So the first F is basically the attention on the customer.

[00:04:11] Dr. Karthik: So that's the most important part. Many times, we tend to just create content, because we believe we have that. And that's what the customer wants. We don't invest so much as marketers to understand what is it that the customer actually is facing the challenge or are they looking for insights and so on and so forth. So invest in doing that amount of intelligence around your customers.

[00:04:32] Dr. Karthik: To understand where they are, where they want to go, what are the priorities? And then figure out how we proceed. So that's the first F. The second F is fact-based. So thought leadership works better when it is backed with data and research. So, you know, if you're at an organization where you are starting off on this journey, it's good to invest in doing research, right?

[00:04:57] Dr. Karthik: So these could be online. So it's, these could [00:05:00] be interviews with experts where essentially you're capturing that data to validate what you're trying to communicate, right? So if you do not have that bandwidth to do the research yourself, obviously there are research firm that you can engage with them, or even as simple as reaching out to a network of people on LinkedIn and gathering data or running polls and gathering data, get a facts to back what you're trying to say.

[00:05:25] Dr. Karthik: So that's the second F. The third F and the most crucial is fresh perspective. Thought Leadership is all about having that unique point of view. And that's what a lot of organizations or individuals lack. So most of the content that you've achieved will be me-too content, there is nothing unique about it. . So why should a customer actually pick up your report or your white paper and read that and them give you a call about it. There should be something unique that you're presenting there as a point of view. So investing in identifying what is it that [00:06:00] the competitors are talking, what is it, the customer's looking at? What's the gap area and how do I give my perspective around that? Right. So having that fresh perspective is the third F. The fourth F again, very important for thought leadership is facilitating knowledge sharing.

[00:06:16] Dr. Karthik: Again, if you have to establish yourself as a thought leader you need to give things out more, right? The tendency for marketers is the moment that I created something like this, let me get that content and let me get to the leads. The immediate focus is on thought leadership is not about just generating leads in the short term, it's about establishing that credibility so that you have repeat business in the long term. so facilitate that knowledge sharing identify channels, identify forums, where you can share this knowledge so that you're building that visibility for the brand. The last F fix the attention. So what I mean by that is, you know, what forms of content can you create for [00:07:00] various channels that you identified to capture the attention of the target audience?

[00:07:05] Dr. Karthik: So it's really important that you customize it, personalize it so that you're able to catch their attention. All these five F's together when done and in a consistent manner can help brands or individuals position themselves as thought leader.. 

[00:07:19] Surbhi Dedhia: Yes. I think you covered such a large landscape sharing this Five F approach.

[00:07:25] Surbhi Dedhia: As you were saying about a fresh perspective, It occurred to me that, in certain markets, in specific industries, let's, take an example of IT industry, or if you're doing a SAAS based services, that is only that much that you can talk. I mean all the people within the SAAS IT industry, they may be talking only about the same idea, the same technology, the same impact that technology can have. Where do the companies then build that fresh, fresh perspective.

[00:07:58] Surbhi Dedhia: Can you share some ideas about this? 

[00:08:01] Dr. Karthik: Yeah, that's, that's a, that's a good question. And in fact, I shared an example of the engagement that I am doing right now. Currently I am heading marketing for this SAAS organisation in Pune called Ameboids.

[00:08:17] Dr. Karthik: The typical approach when I first got in there and I did a study of the competitors, what we see is like you rightly mentioned. Most of them have similar solutions which they are offering and they are playing on the price point of view, or they're just talking very basic things which are more functional based.

[00:08:36] Dr. Karthik: What does the app, what problems is it solving and so on and so forth. So if you have to create your differentiator there, , you need to take a different approach altogether. 

[00:08:48] Dr. Karthik: So what we did there was we set up research councils. It's called the Appraise research council. Then what we've done is we've brought in some leading faculty from universities like Chicago from [00:09:00] UCLA, to be part of this council. And the reason why we did that few of their apps are targeted toward the HR community...

[00:09:08] Dr. Karthik: So so what we've done is through the council, we've carried out a research around the future of work. So, basically with the pandemic, there is so much of digital acceleration hybrid workforces have come in. So a lot of people are trying to grapple with that and figure out what's next and what we should be doing, what we should not be doing.

[00:09:28] Dr. Karthik: Right. Even from an HR leader's perspective. So we did this study, we spoke to some of the more evolved organisations HR, global HR leaders from there. We spoke to about 500 plus HR leaders from across the world to get a perspective on implementing. 

[00:09:43] Dr. Karthik: Where they understand where this is heading, what are some trends? What are some do's and don'ts et cetera. So that this knowledge, can then be shared with a HR leaders of the other organizations where, they're still grappling with this challenge.

[00:09:58] Dr. Karthik: So by doing [00:10:00] this study, and then there's a series of activities that we have planned around the study itself. It will then position Ameboids as a thought leader and create that differentiator unique perspective. And then that's how we will further build on this content as we move forward. 

[00:10:16] Surbhi Dedhia: Yeah, which is interesting, because what you're doing is really going back to the basics here. Like you collecting so much of content and data, that it can be really sliced and diced in very different ways to share perspectives. Yeah. Obviously when you slice and dice the data, it can be attractive to different segments as well of the audience.

[00:10:37] Surbhi Dedhia: So HR is definitely one aspect, future of work, but it's also probably the operations of a company. 

[00:10:45] Surbhi Dedhia: Earlier, you were also mentioning, that thought leadership is often confused with content marketing. Yeah. So can you share some insights? 

[00:10:55] Dr. Karthik: Yeah. So, so you know, that's, that's a common misconception that lot of marketers say. So if I publish a lot of content I will establish thought leadership. Yeah content is crucial aspect. But I guess it's just a sub sector of entire thought leadership marketing. So, what other aspects are you look at from a thought leadership standpoint? One is the kind of awards that you are for, for your solution or perspective. Two, it could be, are you member of any advisory panels or industry associations? Advisory boards, right. That's the second thing, which also showcases thought leadership. Third thing could be the kind of patents that you might have filed for. Okay. 

[00:11:41] Dr. Karthik: That content is not the only thing, there are these other aspects that you need to look at but yes Content is important.

[00:11:49] Surbhi Dedhia: Right. To give an analogy, if you're driving the thought leadership car content is the fuel basically. So more, more content, different types of content, which is [00:12:00] authentically and consistently presented. It will definitely move your car forward. 

[00:12:05] Dr. Karthik: Yeah, that's, that's a very nice analogy. 

[00:12:07] Surbhi Dedhia: Just one more thing about the different types of content and different areas that can put your thought leadership in the front. Like you mentioned, the awards and the associations and the patents even testimonials. Client testimonials. And I think I will add another one is your tribe, your community, because at the end of the day you know, people buy from people.

[00:12:28] Surbhi Dedhia: And once there is this whole tribe that you're base that you create of your audience, that you're constantly talking to bouncing off to giving, adding value to that also helps to drive your thought leadership forward. 

[00:12:40] Dr. Karthik: yes that's very right and user generated content is also very crucial around thought leadership.

[00:12:42] Dr. Karthik: So it's not that the entire content has to be created by yourself. So bring in other perspectives, bring in experts from across collaborate with them and then create something which will have lot more value to the target audience. Obviously because [00:13:00] user-generated content creates more virality, so from social aspect also it helps.. 

[00:13:06] Surbhi Dedhia: Yes. Sure. When you are talking, you're saying about marketeers driving thought leadership or thinking about lead gen when it comes to content. So is thought leadership really marketeer's onus? is it marketeers responsibility in an organization to drive the thought leadership agenda?

[00:13:25] Dr. Karthik: So there is a practical aspect and then there is an aspirational aspect, right? So when I look at it from an aspirational aspects, programs generally work when there is a buy in from the leaders. So the CEO of the organizations. Many times what'll happen is because they don't understand that aspect. and two thought leadership takes longer period to get established. So that is a tendency to immediately say, you know, this is not working. It's not giving us the ROI. So, let's stop [00:14:00] that kind of a thing. So this is where I think the Marketers role is more crucial because they need to, then coach these leaders to say why this is a important, share business cases of other brands where they continue to do this over a period and the ROI. And internally kind of bringing together experts from various departments to, you know, like, like the council example. Right? So as marketers you will know within your organization, who are the subject matter experts, so bringing people together, bringing external experts together, stitching all that in place you know, taking it to the media.

[00:14:34] Dr. Karthik: So I think that where a lot of program management, if I were to call, the onus lies with the marketer. The coaching of leaders to stay invested in, it lies with marketing but the core thought leadership building, itself, the perspectives that you need to share on belongs with the organisation 

[00:14:53] Surbhi Dedhia: right. You know talking about marketing and the marketers role [00:15:00] in an organization, it reminds me of this line in your book, and I'm going to read this out. It says most B2B marketers lose out on capitalizing the full funnel potential of thought leadership, the influence it could have on sales is lot greater than most marketeers realize. So all this while, like you were talking about marketeers and as a marketer myself, I remember the funnel is like the do-alland make all of everything that you do in a your role. So it explain a little bit more about this. 

[00:15:33] Dr. Karthik: Yeah. So I think gone are the days when marketingwas only was about pretty images and a catchy tagline. So now the, the buzzword, which anybody that you would hear in the market is all in performance. So performance marketing or growth hacking. So, those other terms, which get thrown around a lot more for these days, because I think more and more marketing is [00:16:00] now a very metric driven. So think of any brand awareness campaigns you're running campaigns, content marketing, thought leadership that you do, end of the day, how is it contributing towards you know, the bottom line of the organization that's what matters? So that's where I think the focus definitely needs to be on, on how you are complementing or contributing to the funnel. Having said that, it should not be looked at as a short-term thing because thought leadership does not get established.

[00:16:35] Dr. Karthik: So even if I know kind of the entire cycle itself. So if you were to do this research first, and then we create a survey report out of that., you do a set of panel discussions or talks around that entire thing. All of this is in, in the, you know, the early stage, where you are building. Having more conversations and insights, once you you've done that and you've engaged a set of audience, and then you move to the next [00:17:00] stage where you're talking about, okay, so these are the trends, and this is what we're looking at now in order to be ready to meet those trends, what readiness that you need to have in your organization.

[00:17:12] Dr. Karthik: You know, as an example, if there's a technology on an app selling, so what kind of technology readiness would you need. So do an assessment of asking how ready are you to meet these trends so that, you know, you bring in the next level of the funnel, where you are having those assessments and conversations that keep happening. Once you have done that, then you will further narrow down the funnel, so you're having a lot more conversations now, which are more aligned to what you're going to offer as a product or as a service, then it's about, giving them demos.

[00:17:48] Dr. Karthik: Yeah. Okay. So this is the technology readiness that you need. Here's an app that I have which can help you do that, let me give you a demo. So then we'll start getting them some now, often they see the demo. It's not that they immediately go to sign up. Right. So how do you influence that further? So then you nurture them with some more content that you can share, which talks about the why this is crucial. how it can help out, some case studies testimonials, which would validate saying, okay, so this is the expression that I need to be then finally will be when it comes to SAS it could be offers and discounts 

[00:18:29] Dr. Karthik: yeah, upgrades and subscriptions and things. So across the cycle you have a role of thought leadership and various forms of content that will come into play.

[00:18:42] Surbhi Dedhia: Got it. Recently I've been reading a lot about how thought leadership is such a long game, in different industries. It's one thread which is common for building thought leadership. One is consistency. Yes. But the other is like the long game it plays across. Right. And what you just [00:19:00] described, like the, an example of a funnel. It is also a long game, especially in B2B where, conversations probably take 18 months to two years to kind of come to a close.

[00:19:10] Surbhi Dedhia: So I think it, it matches so perfectly because why are you building your thought leadership and like to think through for organization leaders or even marketers who are driving this or managing this program per se, to envision this program? Thought leadership program across the funnel, as well as building it over a period of time, rather than expecting a short ROI.

[00:19:41] Dr. Karthik: And in my book you know, the readers thought of those examples, which I've given there are invested in it for a long time.

[00:19:52] Dr. Karthik: and in the B2B tech space, IBM and Accenture are there with respect to [00:20:00] thought leadership. And why is it happened is because they've played the long game. They have stayed invested in it and consistent in what they are doing. They've data-backed, they have fresh perspective. So the entire 5F if I were to look into that's a very good example of how they've gone about. So it is definitely a long game. You need to stay invested in that and have a vision for it. 

[00:20:24] Surbhi Dedhia: Right True. Talking about thought leadership we spoke so much about on the B2B front. And I know that in our conversation, this whole B2C aspect of thought leadership came about as well. So share, your perspectives about thought leadership for B2C.

[00:20:42] Dr. Karthik: So, typically thought leadership has always been associated with B2B and knowledge sectors. More so now that you have digital selling which has increased. So in fact, 80% of the customers now get in touch with you towards the [00:21:00] fag-end so they have already done most of the research and only then they are reaching out. So it's no longer about those cold calls, random emails that we send and do that pitch. So there is lot of the research which is being done and that's where, I think, thought leadership's role becomes more crucial, but coming to the B2C aspect now again there a lot of the change coming in, why that's happening is also because of the millennials and the gen Z, which just coming into their decision-making picture. Right. And a very interesting study showed that atleast40% of them are going to switch brands, but if they're not connected to a purpose which the brand stands for the value add is doing to the customer and or to the society.

[00:21:46] Dr. Karthik: So its all the more crucial b2C brands also start moving on that trajectory and we are seeing some of those taking that route as well. So one of the brands which I can immediately think about is a leading [00:22:00] a mattress brand. They've now set up something I, I think it's called the sleep Institute that has a lot of research that's getting into how sleep matters, how the kind of mattress that you use influences that. So they're doing a lot of research around it. A decade back we wouldn't have thought about a mattress brand talking about all these things. But now they've taken a total scientific approach to sleep itself..

[00:22:25] Dr. Karthik: Right. And that's because we know a lot of people, these days suffer from lack of sleep, so we've taken that product. They've understood the customer pain point. Right

[00:22:37] Dr. Karthik: But one crucial aspect that keep in mind is it should not just be a thought leadership for the heck of it. For example, one thing which I can think of is.

[00:22:47] Dr. Karthik: when i look at Ayurveda, that's the thing it's from India is now picking up adoption globally as that. So two brands in India, to look at, . [00:23:00] So they've been in this space for, I think, a few decades now and they have invented so much in combining ayurveda with science. Recently I saw, Unilever and Hindustan Lever's Ayush brand. So there's no backing for that entire research which they've done. So as, as a customer, you'll make it out that saying, okay, so they just wanting to cash up a buzz, which is going on in his they're doing it.

[00:23:29] Dr. Karthik: Vis-a-vis a brand, which has stayed invested over a period of time.. While moving on this thought leadership road is important imperative for brands, but it should be genuine. Foundation and Validation is equally important.

[00:23:48] Surbhi Dedhia: Absolutely. I think what examples you gave is, is so true. If you see as consumers, right? Like me everyday in the supermarket, you can even in an aisle of like, biscuits or teabags and everything you can actually see from the visual aspect, the word organic for that matter, everything is, you know, it's like as a consumer, you are so inundated with this word, organic that you are not able to differentiate between the real organic and just the label organic..

[00:24:22] Dr. Karthik: One of the other organization that I consult with that focuses on organic certification, itself. And we recently did a consumer study again, to understand how event organic do they actually know what is all going to need? Do they know the difference between organic and natural? You know, there's so many things say a hundred percent natural.

[00:24:46] Dr. Karthik: So does that mean, should you actually be buying organic? What's the difference if you buy, get certified organic? So we did a very interesting study pan-India study on that. And it was so interesting [00:25:00] to know that most of the consumers actually have no clue. They just look at the word organic and they think it's organic. Or if somebody says it's a hundred percent natural, that's what it is. Now we are doing a lot of consumer awareness building by saying what exactly is organic why you should go for certified organic. How does consuming certified organic products are going to help the farmer community?

[00:25:23] Dr. Karthik: Perspective as, but there's a lot of interesting conversations that we doing on that frontthat

[00:25:36] Dr. Karthik: It is B2B2C.

[00:25:39] Surbhi Dedhia: i really like the process like the thought process, which you just explained. So it's like how it translates to the last mile, how thinking of organizations, while they're selling to other businesses, which sell to the consumers translate the thinking the thought leadership and [00:26:00] obviously as we already established the thoughtleadership has to have a point of view, fresh perspective, authentic.

[00:26:06] Surbhi Dedhia: How does it translate to the last mile of consumers? Wow. I think for me it is food for thought. Absolutely. And I'm sure it is the same for the audience today. I have another question on the Content quality. Now we have, I think I want a large landscape about thought leadership.

[00:26:24] Surbhi Dedhia: Let's talk a little bit about the content quality. According to a recent LinkedIn Edelman survey as well, they have said that there's a lot of content, but the decision makers say that the thought leadership content in particular is of really poor quality.

[00:26:38] Surbhi Dedhia: And you addressed this point in your book as well. Right? So let's, let's talk about this a little bit. Especially the angle that I want to take here is the how thought leaders or people who are establishing themselves with the point of view can navigate this whole quality issue. Having a fresh perspective is one aspect, but [00:27:00] then how can they present something which is quality to their audience.

[00:27:05] Dr. Karthik: No, that's, that's a very crucial aspects Surbhi. like you also mentioned that the data clearly shows that the investment in content has been increasing year on year. So there's almost been like a 45 per cent increase in content marketing and content creation by marketers. But unfortunately just about 10% of B2B buyers believe that the content, in which they're getting demonstrates thought leadership. So while you are increasing your investments it's actually going down. Now why that happens is because one there is no background research and the necessary investments that is done inhouse to understand where we are , what our customers want, what's our proposition, how do we translate this proposition into various content topics, themes as it.

[00:27:55] Dr. Karthik: So I think you to spending that amount of time does not happen. I continue to consult with a lot of tech companies and I, I typically hear conversations where they say what are the competitors talking about.

[00:28:04] Dr. Karthik: okay. They're talking aboutVCs, I think are not talking about it. Let's talk about, so I tell them. That's, that's not the appropriate. Yeah. There could be certain things which, which would be common and we should be talking about it, but what's your unique angle or unique perspective aspect that you want to focus on and build your credibility. Let's let's get that in place. Once we have that in place, then we shall move forward in creating that content. So I think doing the groundwork is very important to ensure your quality of content is good. Second, experts from you know, the other stakeholders, from the ecosystem are equally important.

[00:28:44] Dr. Karthik: So, so going back to the future of work study, obviously, the core audience, the HR community. If you are not having conversations with the community and getting their perspective. You won't know what the HR is actually thinking about. And so there is a difference. So you are saying, yeah, I know what the HR wants at I create the content.

[00:29:04] Dr. Karthik: Vis-a-vis, I talked to 20 HR leaders, understand what they're doing and then basis that create the content is going to be so much of a difference. So I think that approach is that you're having that dialogue with the concerned customers or target audience that you are looking at. The third thing is after you probably done these, two steps is when you need to actually write that content.

[00:29:29] Dr. Karthik: That's where, I think more so from the B to B perspective that I've been on the client, is there is a dirth of good content writers..

[00:29:41] Dr. Karthik: So it's very important on the kind of resources, you are investing in to write that content. 

[00:29:49] Surbhi Dedhia: Thank you for that. And I feel, look at all the McKinsey the mammothsof content that they generate, they are timeless. Some of the pieces [00:30:00] that you pick up, like even Harvard business review for that example having gone through the process of publishing an article for an author in HBR, I remember it took us 18 months for that one 1500 word article and it's, it's a grilling process. It's a process. But I think once it was published, it is timeless and it can be referred and shared. And you know, there's just so many perspectives also that come from it. 

[00:30:27] Surbhi Dedhia: I mean, sure. You outsource. There are plenty of agencies out there today who are doing a great job, outsource it, but definitely have your point of view. Definitely invest the time to spend with the outsourced party and share what you expect very clearly. 

[00:30:45] Dr. Karthik: Yeah. Yeah. Like you know, Taleb mentions in his book Antifragililty.

[00:30:48] Dr. Karthik: So they area lot of things which actually even you go back a few decades, things are still pretty much common. It's not that everything has changed, even if we [00:31:00] take our cars. Yeah, cars have got a lot more tech into it. Maybe design wise they are different

[00:31:08] Dr. Karthik: and things like that, but the actual driving itself hasn't changed. The steering wheel the gear and how it functions. So, so that core element will not change. If I take a parallel for marketing has been a while, there is a lot of tech that's coming into picture and there is a lot more metric driven and things like that.

[00:31:28] Dr. Karthik: The goal of marketing still remains. The same marketing was always about performance marketing was always about growth. There was no marketer even if few decades back who was doing marketing, which was not for growth. It is just that these new terms that have been thrown out everywhere, but at the core of it, I think marketing still remains to, to what it does, which is still influence the customer and enable the brands growth..

[00:31:56] Surbhi Dedhia: Absolutely. I was just going to add to it that most of the complex [00:32:00] things that we are dwelling into often are just solving the simplest of the problem. So even if you apply simplicity in your thinking it can solve the problem.

[00:32:09] Surbhi Dedhia: So thank you so much for sharing all that you, I think I had a blast conversing with you today, because this is all ticking, all the favorite boxes, which is the marketing aspect, funnel thought leadership. It was, brilliant. Thank you so much. Now, before I let you go tell the audience where they can find the book?

[00:32:28] Dr. Karthik: Sure. So firstly, thanks once again for having me on the show, Even I had a wonderful conversation. Talk about so many of these aspects? And interesting part as many times as we talk we also learn, so thanks once again for that. So my book you can find on Amazon for the global audience it's also available on Amazon.

[00:32:49] Dr. Karthik: And the book is The Thought Leader Way. So that's available there. I'm on, on LinkedIn. You can look me up. The website is thoughthyphen starters ( So for us, who are interested in doing content marketing the right way, you know, building content which creates thought leadership. So we work with you know, B2B companies across sizes and help them established thought leadership.

[00:33:15] Dr. Karthik: But so yeah, so these are the places where, you can find me and happy to continue the conversation there.

[00:33:25] Surbhi Dedhia: The video or the podcast page, so that it's easier for the audiences to grab this. Wonderful. Thank you so much for coming on the show. And I wish we continue the conversations forward 

[00:33:38] Dr. Karthik: Congratulations for your podcast. I'm sure it's definitely going to make a mark for itself. 

[00:33:43] Surbhi Dedhia: Thank you.